http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ BikingToronto Forum Topic: Cyclist and Driver Education en Wed, 19 Jun 2013 23:41:39 +0000 http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-4227 Wed, 25 Jul 2012 02:09:14 +0000 tariiqend 4227@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>I am sure my visitors will find that very useful.</p> <p><a href="http://hamariweb.com/directories/the_bise_rawalpindi__wp2610.aspx">bisegrw</a> </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-889 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:46:11 +0000 Duncan 889@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>@ivanvector</p> <p>You're absolutely correct in that you shouldn't have to stop for a cyclist once you've signaled and started your turn. I'm sure we've all seen cyclists trying to sneak by here, and this is one of the few times I can say that they most likely don't know that they can and should be passing around turning cars to the left side. Or simply stopping and waiting.</p> <p>From the Chicago video, the examples they show of not turning right in front of a cyclist are to prevent cars from either speeding to quickly pass then turn in front of a cyclist (which I witness daily) and to prevent drivers who are riding alongside or just slightly ahead of a cyclist from making a quick right hooks. </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-888 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 15:08:00 +0000 ivanvector 888@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>From the snippets of the HTA posted here - especially 147(2)(a) and 148(5), it seems that cyclists (and all vehicles) are directed to pass another vehicle moving in the same direction to the left, and not to the right. As a driver, if I'm making a right turn I check for pedestrians and cyclists as I start my turn. Once I've started my right turn (with my signal on) I expect nobody moving faster than a brisk walk is going to come from my right and try to pass. It's almost impossible to see at the angle that a cyclist would be coming from. As a cyclist I'm aware of that, and I either move to the left if I can do so safely (as the law seems to say you should) or else I wait for the car to make the turn. It really doesn't take that much extra time, and it avoids a potential conflict which I can't possibly win. </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-885 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:01:34 +0000 Duncan 885@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>A "3 feet to pass" law is designed to give cyclists more rights in the instance that a collision occurs. Right now, if a driver fails to give you enough room when passing, and subsequently mows you down, there is nothing in the law books to fully punish this action. This means no reason for drivers to actually give us space and they can keep up with their bullying ways.</p> <p>I've noticed a few drivers looking for cyclists before they turn right... the vast majority don't and simply inch out and to the right, blocking both cyclists and pedestrians while waiting for a clearing. Every day I have drivers speed up from behind me to cut me off to make a right turn as though precedence is given to those who get to the line first. </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-883 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:47:41 +0000 k10ery 883@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>"I remember someone saying that Ottawa had a 1 metre passing bylaw but I can't seem to find it. The thing is, passing distance is relative. Three feet is great at slower speeds but if someone's going 70-80 three feet will not be enough in my opinion."</p> <p>Thanks. I think a rule like that would be nice but unenforceable except occasionally in the event of a serious accident. I like the yield-to-cyclists-when-turning-right bylaw though. Because Toronto drivers don't do this I am often forced to the left of cars at intersections for safety. I always thought I was breaking the law in doing so, by the way, but I see now that the HTA explicitly permits it:</p> <p><blockquote>Slow vehicles to travel on right side<br /> 147. (1) Any vehicle travelling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 147 (1).<br /> Exception<br /> (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a driver of a,<br /> (a) vehicle while overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction;<br /> (b) vehicle while preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway; or<br /> (c) road service vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 147 (2).<br /> </blockquote></p> <p>Maybe I'll ask Michael Walker to support my cycling bylaw initiative :) </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-875 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:45:01 +0000 toddtyrtle 875@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>Good point - I'm pretty sure you're right there as well.</p> <p>I *hate* that passing method, btw. </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-874 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:43:26 +0000 Duncan 874@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p><ol type="1"><li>Bicycles overtaken</p> <p>(6) Every person on a bicycle or motor assisted bicycle who is overtaken by a vehicle or equestrian travelling at a greater speed shall turn out to the right and allow the vehicle or equestrian to pass and the vehicle or equestrian overtaking shall turn out to the left so far as may be necessary to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 148 (6).</li></ol></p> <p>I believe this refers to narrow, 2-way streets and prevents people from riding in the middle. But, it is so vague that it is almost meaningless. I'm not moving right for anyone behind me, ever, be they in a car or on a horse. If you want to overtake me, do it safely.</p> <p>Or we could just keep having motorists pass us this way; drive up as close to me as you can and then match my speed for a few seconds. After a few more seconds, gun the gas and speed past me without moving left in the slightest. Why should they yield, improper passing is like a $100 fine! </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-872 Fri, 11 Sep 2009 06:46:46 +0000 toddtyrtle 872@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>Nope, they're pretty vague at the moment. Section 148 says:</p> <p><ul><li>Vehicles meeting bicycles</p> <p>(4) Every person in charge of a vehicle on a highway meeting a person travelling on a bicycle shall allow the cyclist sufficient room on the roadway to pass. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 148 (4).</p> <p>Vehicles or equestrians overtaking others</p> <p>(5) Every person in charge of a vehicle or on horseback on a highway who is overtaking another vehicle or equestrian shall turn out to the left so far as may be necessary to avoid a collision with the vehicle or equestrian overtaken, and the person overtaken is not required to leave more than one-half of the roadway free. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 148 (5).</p> <p>Bicycles overtaken</p> <p>(6) Every person on a bicycle or motor assisted bicycle who is overtaken by a vehicle or equestrian travelling at a greater speed shall turn out to the right and allow the vehicle or equestrian to pass and the vehicle or equestrian overtaking shall turn out to the left so far as may be necessary to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 148 (6).</li></ul></p> <p>I remember someone saying that Ottawa had a 1 metre passing bylaw but I can't seem to find it. The thing is, passing distance is relative. Three feet is great at slower speeds but if someone's going 70-80 three feet will not be enough in my opinion.</p> <p>Did you also note that there was a specific "No parking in the bike lane" ordinance and they were asking officers to enforce it? That's something that bugs me and would make a large difference with a relatively little amount of effort. Of course now I'm wondering if they let Fedex trucks and the like park there anyway as they do here... </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-871 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:36:50 +0000 k10ery 871@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>That first lady could have been in Fargo :)</p> <p>I am curious about the Chicago municipal bylaws protecting cyclists - particularly requiring motorists to yield to cyclists on right turns and allotting 3 feet to cyclists when they are being passed. Are there efforts underway to pass such bylaws in Toronto (I take it we don't have them now)? Do people think it would be effective? </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-870 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:07:16 +0000 Duncan 870@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>"In ChiKAgo, we share the road"</p> <p>Great video, it looks like they got their everyday cyclist interviews from some public event. I was at the CNE where our Armed Forces were showing off tanks and guns and didn't see Toronto Police Services there. I was at the Live Green Toronto Festival and the only police officers I saw were directing traffic into a parking garage.</p> <p>I have no idea how competent Toronto Police are as well. Maybe a few more public appearances attended by cyclists and motorists would be a big step in educating the public. That's not to say they aren't doing this, I just haven't seen it for myself. And, I'd rather not get pulled over during a "blitz" as my first interaction. </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-869 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 21:44:39 +0000 toddtyrtle 869@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>I might suggest that police education is important as well (though I can't say one way or another whether our police are well educated relative to cycling). Regardless, it looks like Chicago also thinks so and they produced a really amazing video for their police department. We need something like this here, perhaps adapted for drivers/cyclists. Maybe the place to address these issues would be in unexpected places. Maybe a clever PSA before a movie, or in donated space on elevator screens...</p> <p>Anyway, you can find the Chicago Police education film <a href="http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/09/10/10781/">here</a>. </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-868 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:28:55 +0000 Duncan 868@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>lOCk... well, the testing to get your driver's license is supposed to evaluate your road intelligence... unfortunately it seems that many rules are forgotten or dismissed after testing is done.</p> <p>Adding more information on cyclists (and everyone else drivers share the road with) is a good start. I'd actually advocate continuous testing every time a license is to be renewed. Or at least a pamphlet reminding people of changes to the rules, or the rules people tend to break most. </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-866 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:02:38 +0000 lOCk 866@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>A drivers license is NOT an intelligence test... HELLO???? </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-865 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:02:04 +0000 Duncan 865@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>I would say that I hear, "Get off the road!" at least 3 times a week. That, or I'll get a honk from behind and see someone frantically waving their arms for me to move over... I'm guessing on top of the curb, since that's the only space left.</p> <p>I know my Young Driver's course covered hand signals... but aside from some gory collision footage ("there are no accidents only collisions") there was nothing on how to drive near cyclists. And, considering the driving instructors who have cut me off on several occasions, I'm pretty sure that this hasn't changed. </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-864 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:43:38 +0000 toddtyrtle 864@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p>Classic example: While it has never happened to me I've heard many friends being told by drivers to "Get on the sidewalk!" which is illegal. People of similar mindset to those yelling often post "and they're always riding on the sidewalk!" comments online as well.</p> <p>Would love to see a revision to the Driver's Handbook. Some PSA's would be nice as well. </p> http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/topic.php?id=302#post-863 Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:14:19 +0000 joe 863@http://bikingtoronto.com/forum/ <p><a href="http://www.thevarsity.ca/article/19759">The Varsity has an article</a> about the lack of educational information leading to accidents between cyclists and drivers:</p> <p><ul><li><em><br /> <strong><a href="http://www.thevarsity.ca/article/19759">Government to blame for bumpy ride</a><br /> Lack of safety information is the main reason for bike accidents in Ontario</strong></p> <p>These incidents are examples of negligence by the provincial and municipal governments, which aside from providing limited resources to cyclists, fail to ensure that the message of bike safety equally reaches all members of the road.</p> <p>The biggest issue is that motorists are not familiar with these safety guidelines, and the province in no way emphasizes bike safety to drivers. The Ontario Ministry of Transportation’s Driver’s Handbook contains only a brief mention of cyclists:</p> <p>"Motorcycles, bicycles, limited-speed motorcycles and mopeds often need to pull to the left or right side of their lane to avoid dangerous road conditions or to be seen by other drivers. Do not take this as an invitation to pass in the same lane. If you do want to pass these vehicles, do so by changing lanes."</p> <p>...</p> <p>There is no important information regarding cyclists in the Driver’s Handbook, such as biker hand signals, meaning the driver is ignorant to safety procedures. If drivers are never educated, how are they to be held responsible?</p> <p></em></li></ul> </p>